Thursday, April 17, 2008

Theme of the Week Pocket Pair Hand Histories

So it seems there has been some Hand Histories going around from our buddy CMitch. Even better than the posts have been the comments discussing the hands which revolove around QQ and JJ. If you haven't had a chance to drop by, stop now and click on link. BTW, don't pay any attention to the comments I left as it is obvious that we are playing two completely different games (50NL vs 200NL).

Going along with this theme, I am going to throw out two hands from last night involving KK and JJ that were very tough decisions for me.

But first, I did play the Mook. I think I made it a little past half way when new blogger MorningThunder knocked me out with AK. I believe I raised from fairly EP and he reraised. He had a big stack at the time and thought he was just position raising and I pushed. He turned over AK; but WAIT... Q on the flop... But WAIT Again.. K on the river and IGHN. Congrats to MT for taking those chips to the final table.

Onto the hands.

First hand involves KK:

Let's set the stage. I am down over 2 buyins and not catching the breaks. Nothing unusual, one bad beat and one terrible play by me.

Anyway, the two players are normal, good players:

MP: 22/16/3.0
BTN: 13/11/2.14

Why I was at this table is another problem for another day. I still need to keep track of how the dynamics of the table change over time.

Full Tilt Poker No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official Hand History Converter

BTN: $53.65
SB: $19.85
Hero (BB): $90.45
UTG: $56.75
MP: $64.35
CO: $57.95

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with K K
1 fold, MP raises to $2, 1 fold, BTN raises to $6, 1 fold, Hero calls $5.50,

As with others, I mix 4 betting and calling here. OOP, I chose to call, nothing too far from standard. More fireworks to come.

MP raises to $22, BTN calls $16,
Hero ??????

So we have raises and cold callers from good players. What do you do?

Hero raises to $90.45 all in, MP calls $42.35 all in, BTN calls $31.65 all in

Probably a no brainer; but MP insta called and I thought I was in trouble. BTN tanked for a long time before he called. Below is how it played out. Any thoughts?

Flop: ($182.60) 8 Q 7

Turn: ($182.60) 4

River: ($182.60) 4

Final Pot: $182.60
BTN shows Jh Jd (two pair, Jacks and Fours)
Hero shows Kd Kh (two pair, Kings and Fours)
MP shows Kc Ad (a pair of Fours)

Hand #2: JJ

Set up: Button was a really good play or that was my read anyway. He was 22/20.5/4.40.

We had already had some history where I had laid down to his 4 bets. Generally, he was really aggressive and I backed down. I'm just going to show the hand and get your thoughts. I think I really messed this one up.

Full Tilt Poker No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official Hand History Converter

BTN: $214.75
SB: $51.95
Hero (BB): $52.65
UTG: $18.55
CO: $57.00

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with J J

2 folds, BTN raises to $1.75, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.25

Flop: ($3.75) 5 A T (2 players)

Hero checks, BTN bets $3, Hero calls $3

Turn: ($9.75) 4 (2 players)

Hero checks, BTN bets $8.20, Hero calls $8.20

River: ($26.15) T (2 players)

Hero bets $15, BTN folds

Final Pot: $26.15
Hero wins $24.85
(Rake: $1.30)

We talked a little afterwards and he was critical of making this bet. He said (and I think he was probably right)... why put a hand that has showdown value in the form of a bluff. The truth is that if I thought I was ahead, do I check and hope that he bets? If he puts in a big bet, can I still call? Again, this comes down to bet sizing and pot control which I am still really weak in.

Well there you have it and there you are...

Had a nice 4 buyin loss tonight. That is always fun. I need to learn to not pay off sets.

Have a nice day!!


cmitch said...

Thanks for the link. You are right the comments I received on those posts are awesome including yours.

1st hand - no way I am getting away from KK there for 120 BB. I am not real familiar with 50nl play, but I assume that a lot of players are valuing 1010+ and AK with the same amount of strength. The button seems like a tight player based on his stats, but he is probably shoving AA at that point. If one of them had AA then that is just bad luck in a 6 max game. (Might be a different story if you were 250+ BB deep)

2nd hand - I usually 3 bet preflop mixed in with just calling about 25% of the time. Since you called I would probably c/r the flop since you are in the BB and it is a button v. BB hand. He is c-betting with atc. Do you show c-bet % on your hud? Since you didn't c/r the flop you really don't know if he has an ace or not. Based on the check/call of the flop, I would lead the turn and fold to a raise. C/C the flop and leading the turn has to look strong and he is folding without an ace.

As for him being critical of your river bet b/c your hand had showdown value. I don't mind your river bet at all based on the way the hand played. You have to get to showdown to have that value, so why not put out a blocking bet and decide your price on the river. If you check, he can blow you off the hand or charge you more to get to showdown. I'm guessing that this player is never bluff raising you on the river there, so you can fold if he raises.

Alan aka RecessRampage said...

Damn, cmitch beat me to it.

KK go all in, no brainer. If one of them has aces, they have aces. Big deal. AK is overvalued even up to 400NL so in a 6 max game, you just can't lay down KK unless you KNOW FOR SURE that the guy has AA. And since you never know for sure, I wouldn't fold KK. And I'm a nit.

2nd hand, I don't mind your bet on the river either, even though the question would be, did you think he would fold an A? In other words, you repped the T when the T paired. Not a bad bet if you think he might fold a weak ace. However, if you think he won't, then it's just a bad bet. Personally though, I didn't like that you checkcalled all the way. Did you think he didn't have an A? If so, no need to bet the river. Did you think he might have the A? Then why call? I woulda 3 bet pre and if he 4 bets, in a 5 handed table and if he's 4 bet you a fair amount of times with you folding, I'd just shove.

WillWonka said...

2nd Hand..

I do believe that I am ahead; but certainly a weak Ace is a part of his range.

I'm thinking my call down mode might trace back to my limit days.

The blocking bet really serves a couple of purposes. As with any blocking bet, I am trying to control the pot. I am also giving him an opportunity to raise and I ultimately felt he was going to check behind. And finally, if he does have a weak ace, I felt he was a good enough player to fold it.

He said he had 9 high and that he couldn't believe that I would do what I did with JJ. I don't doubt that he could be doing whatever he is doing with ATC because he was a very aggressive player and loved to play position. His stats looked liked I want my stats to look like at the end of the day.

DubsPoke said...

1st hand - I would have 4bet preflop to isolate. I don't want multiple hands in because that means potential for multiple sets and two pairs to hit on the flop and be well-disguised.

With that said, I like how you played it post-flop.

2nd Hand: You're playing with fire by not making your opponent define his hand range. However, by flat calling, you do define your own hand range as most likely a draw (flush or straight draw), kinda likely 2nd or 3rd pair, least likely two pair or a set (not likely since those hands would re-raise to protect against a draw). Since one of those scare cards hit (pairing 2nd or 3rd pair), I DO like your bet on the river. Your actually hand is no longer relevant since you haven't defined the villian's range before the river. Winning a pot without showing your hand is better than winning a pot that you have to as it keeps your opponent off-balance.

Your biggest mistake? Letting your opponent know what you had without making him pay for it.

Also, what was your plan if your opponent shoved the river, a scenario that, with the limited information I have, has strong potential to occurr?

MorningThunder said...

SWEET. My first link. You rock man.

2nd. I would put my money in sooner to define his hand. 5 handed with position, he will represent the Ace all day long. But who knows, I am still learning.

Who links to my website?