Friday, May 30, 2008

Hand from Yesterday & Lost

No poker last night as I wasn't feeling to well and Mrs Wonka wanted to watch the 3 hour Lost show. Let me tell you, that is a lot of TV show. To keep it brief, I was happy with the show and did not expect to Locke in the casket. Let's put it this way, the ending was good enough to keep me interested for next year.

Anyway, I wanted to repost the hand from yesterday with some more details.

Here is the setup. The villain in this hand is a good player and his stats look like this over 350 hands:

VPIP 21, PFR 17, 3bet 3, fold to 3 bet 57, 4 bet 0
AF 2.2, Squeezes 9, Cbets 86, Folds CBet 29
Steals 38, Button steal 47, folds SB 100, folds BB to Steal 79

He has lost 1 1/2 buyins; but over this short sample, I won't look at that too much.

So, I put all those stats to help in making the decision that I was faced with.

On a side note, I was listening to Cash Plays with Bart Hanson with guess Leatherass this week. I haven't finished listening to it; but they made an interesting comment and I would like to get your thoughts.

They said the bad players... mostly the lower limit players rely too much on the HUD stats and that you should be able to play without the stats and these people put too many stats on their HUD. I couldn't disagree more; but of course I fall exactly into the sample player that they are referring to. Look, here is the thing. At my levels, you are seeing hundreds if not thousands of different players over the course of a month and it can only help to have some information on them. Do I post too many stats? Maybe. I'll be the judge of that over time and continue to monitor what stats I really use and which stats actually help me in my decision process. For me, the bad part is that I have always been an awful note taker. So while I disagree, what do others think?

Anyway, back to the hand. Looking at the stats, I will say that this guy is a strong player. I say this with a bit of chagrin as these stats are very similar to mine so what does that tell you?

Here is the hand in its entirety.

Full Tilt Poker $50.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players

The Official Hand History Converter

SB: $102.95
BB: $111.90
Hero (UTG): $91.55
CO: $54.45
BTN: $168.50

Pre Flop: Hero is UTG with A A

Hero raises to $1.75, 2 folds, SB calls $1.75, 1 fold

Flop: ($3.50) 8 9 A (2 players)

SB checks, Hero bets $3.00, SB calls $3

Turn: ($9.50) 4 (2 players)

SB checks, Hero bets $7.00, SB raises to $23, Hero raises to $86.80, SB folds

What do you think of this line? Does anybody just flat call the raise on the turn with the plans of getting it in on a non heart river?

Have a nice weekend!!!


cmitch said...

LOL - I heard leatherass say the same thing and strongly disagreed also. It might be OK not to rely on stats if your player pool is less than 50 players, but at any limits below 10/20 they are absolutely important. In nl cash games, there are so many times that you are in marginal situations and the stats of each player can really help in your decision making process. It isn't like we are solely relying on the hud stats. We are using them as an additional tool and in my mind the more information the better.

I like the way that you played the hand on the turn. Flat calling isn't really an option.

DubsPoke said...

I haven't listend to the show yet, but will tonight. But based on your comments and cmith's, here are my thoughts:

The trap that I run into (and believe other low to micro players run into) is relying TOO heavily on the stats and not using them as a tool. I get so wrapped up in the fact that a player is playing 50% of hands and raising only 4% that I forget to watch what story he is telling as the cards are laid out.

The HUD also allows us to get lazy ie not concentrate fully on the virtual felt. If you are playing 3 tables or less, you should have enough concentration to recognize what players are doing and how often they are doing it. The HUD becomes much more important to me when you start 4+ tabling as it can be more difficult to follow the action on each table. The stats allow us to "Catch up on the action" to some degree.

I've actually turn off the HUD when I have 3 6max tables or less. i find it forces me to watch the action, therefore I typically play much better. I do have PT in the background and have become an expert at the Player Find feature if I'm in a tough spot.

If I'm playing 3 FR tables, I turn it back on (too many players to keep track of at that point). If I'm 4 tabling, it comes back on as well.

Good post WillWonka!

PS -> I like your line. You do end up folding out a lot of worse hands that are not likely to improve on the river. Plus you still have 10 outs to a FH (I think) to his 13 or so outs to a flush. Calling isn't an option, but perhaps a play for value? I'm not near good enough to be offering much advice though! Where's fuel55 when you need him?!

WillWonka said...

Mitch... yeah, what you said..

Dubs.. FWIW, I typically play 4 tables at a time 6max. As you say, you can't catch everything so using the HUD as a tool to help in your decisions based on what you already know is key.

Thanks for the comments.

also, by the way, if you want to know how the hand ended up, see the comments of my previous post.

Alan aka RecessRampage said...

The only thing that I would think about in terms of that comment (which I haven't heard) is that maybe esp at lower stakes where players just continue to rotate in and out, you prob don't have any meaningful sample size. So, if you're following too closely on what his stats are, maybe some will make decisions based on those stats when in fact those stats could be totally misleading.

I don't really know one way or another but just a thought.

Oh and your hand. I would play exactly the way you played it.

Bayne_S said...

I raise turn. If he has flush draw I want him to pay. If he has flush I want to be getting money in with outs rather than dead

Who links to my website?